Feature Category: Interviews

With Bret Hart recently announced to be starring in Barry J. Gillis’ horror anthology Tales from the Dead Zone, we were lucky enough to grab some time with the wrestling icon to discuss his decision to return to acting, his experience of playing a no-nonsense detective in the movie, if he’ll now be pursuing a full-time acting career, who could possibly play Bret in the story of his life, and so much more.

STARBURST: To start with, how did you end up involved in Tales from the Dead Zone?

Bret Hart: It just came at the right time, in the sense that I was looking for something to do and to challenge myself to see what was out there. It was just the challenge to play the part, to take on the role. I had gone through some hand surgery at that time, some wrist surgery, and I was in a fair bit of pain when I did the shoot. So at the time, I needed something to pick up my spirits a little bit and have some fun; not worry so much, just have some fun with the role. And I’ve never played a killer before.

How would you describe the movie to people?

I can only speak for the parts that I did, because I’m not so familiar with the full script, but it was a fun script and the role had a lot of swearing, a lot of violence, and a lot of anger. I was looking forward to that.

How much fun was it for you to get to play a private detective?

It was fun, I enjoyed it. When I did it I was thinking that this is really not a Bret Hart type of role – I’m not playing a hero or anything – but at the same time I thought I’d play a rugged Bret Hart type of private detective and to have fun with it. And that’s what I tried to do.

Tales from the Dead Zone

 

Piggybacking off that comment, what would you describe as a typical Bret Hart type of role?

It’s the stereotype. For years, I was always getting movie roles where – kind of like the stuff John Cena’s done – you’re always being the hero and everybody loves you. I did that with my wrestling career, so it’s really not that interesting to play that kind of part. The detective in this particular movie was a pretty rough ‘n’ tough old cop. I got to have some fun with that, and people will be surprised to hear me go off and to see me in a situation where I do some pretty violent things.

Were there any films or specific characters that you pulled inspiration from for your role here, or did you go in with a clean state and open mind?

I think I came in with a clean slate, but I kind of think of someone like Columbo. Except for he’s a much more violent, deranged guy who is going to solve everything, just not with some thinking; maybe with some violent action.

Tales from the Dead Zone is classified as a horror movie, so are you a long-time fan of the horror genre?

I can be. I don’t really like to get scared. I don’t go to movies and want to come out all stressed out. I like more family-related movies and action movies. I’m all for happy endings. At the same time, I don’t go to a lot of horror movies or watch a lot of them, but when there’s a good one or one that captures my imagination, I really enjoy them. It’s kind of like pro wrestling. You can suspend your disbelief and go along with the storyline and have some fun and get a different kind of release like when you get really scared. I don’t know if the movie delivers that – I think it can and it should, and that’s the plan – but I liked the twists and turns that I was involved in. I thought my character was a clever character, he was smart enough to figure out what was going on. At the same time, he was somebody who believed in serving his own justice out.

So a little like a Punisher sort of character who has their own brand of justice?

Exactly. It works all the same.

When it comes to the horror genre, do you have a particular favourite movie?

My favourite horror movie? I was always a big fan of all the Hannibal Lecter movies. I used to like some of the zombie movies; I always liked Return of the Living Dead. That was one of my favourite movies, but I like that more as a comedy. Then there’s called Dawn of the Dead. I like it when I get scared. It’s funny how you can watch a scary movie 30, 40 years later and see it as corny and wonder how it scared you so much back when you were a kid.

Bret in Loneseome Dove

 

In terms of acting, back in the ‘90s and into the 2000s you did stuff such as Lonesome Dove, The Adventures of Sinbad, and then the Aladdin stage show. Was it always a plan of yours to get into acting, or was it something that just happened to come along at the right time back then?

Oh, for sure it was my next step to go in after wrestling. I had every intention of exploiting every opportunity to do what I could in film. I wanted to get out of television, I didn’t want to do any more TV. TV’s a lot of hard work and you’ve got to spend a lot of time on the road. I didn’t want to do that, but I did want to move into movies. Then I suffered my concussion injury, which was a real challenge for me. That’s why I did the Aladdin thing. I chose to do that because, even if I was not very good and it turned out to be a mistake, I would have been okay with it because I did it as a challenge. I had such trouble memorising lines at that time. That was sort of my step away from having my concussion injury. I was moving in the right direction. But then, of course, my stroke happened in 2002. That really made it hard for me. It’s not real obvious to a lot of people, but it can be a little bit obvious when you get tried; the left side of my face gets a little droopy and my walk gets a little stilted. When I get tired or if I get cold, it shows up much more obviously. And again, the sort of stereotypical movie I was getting [offered] was something for the Bret Hart wrestling character. I was always a good guy or a big hero or a guy who worked out in the gym – all of these characters and roles that played off my real wrestling career. They weren’t challenging. I had to start passing on movie projects mostly because I didn’t feel I could do justice to the parts with the limitations I had from my stroke.

In saying that, I also think that if you needed me to play the part of a guy that was injured, a Vietnam veteran or something, I could play that. I could play somebody who was hurt, who had a stilted walk, whose face was covered on one side, or I could play a monster in a Star Trek movie or something. There were certain things that I could have done, and certain things that I would’ve done if they came along. That’s where this project came in. I’d just had some surgery on my hand and was going in for my second surgery. I just wanted it to not be obvious that I was having trouble or that I was in a lot of pain at the time. Even when I had to choke somebody, it was hard for me to do it the way I would normally do it. At the same time, I saw the whole thing as a chance to challenge myself again and test my memory and the smoothness of doing my lines. On that level I was really happy. It was fun for me to work with Dakota [House – co-star] again. Him and I have become good friends and I enjoyed working with him again.

Since suffering the concussions, the in-ring retirement and then your stroke, do you think that resulted in people offering you less projects that are the usual meathead wrestler roles and instead presented you with opportunities to play other sorts of roles?

Well I’d done two seasons on Lonesome Dove. I thought I did really well, and playing that part was perfect for me. My acting roles and opportunities would’ve only gotten brighter if that had panned out for me. Instead, that series got cancelled. And I never really had a chance to pursue acting after that. I went back to the wrestling and then I got hurt, my career ended, and I had a stroke. You’re right, I had a lot of derailments. That’s where you’ve got to look further ahead and realise what kind of parts I can do. I got a lot of different offers, but usually I just turned them down as they’re not really parts I’d want to be remembered for or they’re not challenging for me. So this part, not that it was a real challenge, but it was fun. Like I say, I was just going through one surgery and then happened to be going for another hand surgery, which was quite a painful time period for me. I sought a challenge to do something for myself, to pick up my spirits and have some fun. I didn’t really worry about the script too much or how it was filmed. I just wanted to have fun. And it was fun and I enjoyed working with everybody that I worked with, and I think I did the best I could with the role.

Ross Petty Productions’ Aladdin

 

You talked about passing on roles following your stroke. After the setbacks that you’ve had, when do you feel you really got your confidence back to want to go out and try acting again?

My plan was always to move more into acting when my wrestling career wound down. Unfortunately, my wrestling career wound down and got cut off with an injury which limited me to what I could do after that. The truth of it, I would say, is Ross Petty and the people out of Toronto that asked me to play Aladdin. That whole role, with the singing and the show and all that – I’m certainly no singer and I’m not much of a dancer either – but I appreciated that. I remember I said to them, “If you think I can do this then let me do this. But if you don’t think I can do it after all of the rehearsals, don’t let me go out there and embarrass myself.” They were like, “No, no, we’ll make sure you’re good.” They worked with me a lot and I gave 100% for them and tried my best, because it was a real challenge for me to just remember all of the lines. Even though you do it every day, it was a whole play, a whole pantomime. I expected the challenge, but I was a little fearful that I might drop the ball. That role in itself was a big role and it was a real challenge. I had so much fun with it, I enjoyed every member of the cast, and I would do it all again tomorrow – I would do it for free, it was so much fun.

It was just a real honour to be involved with such a classy production. That opened the door for me to at least accept these sorts of things as challenges and not to worry about what a critic might think of the movie or what they thought of my acting. I really didn’t care, I just wanted to have some fun. I look at everything like that today. I get a lot of your standard pro wrestler type parts, being a bouncer or bodyguard or something, and it’s always kind of the same things. You just never know what tomorrow’s going to bring. I always look at it that if something comes across my table, a) it might be fun, and b) it might be a challenge where I can prove something to myself. I’ve never tried a horror movie before, but it was the same thing: it was just kind of fun and a challenge. And I hope that people think I did a good enough job to at least believe that I wasn’t Bret Hart for a second; that I wasn’t the Hitman character that they know.

Roddy Piper is somebody who obviously opened the door, and then Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson has taken things to a whole other level, but do you think it’s now easier for wrestlers to be taken more seriously as actors and not just constantly be typecast?

I think Rock, like you said, has really opened the door for everybody, but I think there are also certain other guys – like [Dave] Bautista has done an awesome job in the movies I’ve seen him in. And even John Cena’s done a really good job. I think he’s adjusted really well to the acting. I’m really proud of him. I think it’s a real challenge. I think for every great, iconic wrestler, when your career winds down it’s a natural step to challenge yourself and try the acting. In wrestling, I think there’s a lot of similarities between that and memorising scripts for a movie; you have to remember a series of moves the same way you remember a series of words. You have to remember what order they’re in and you have to remember to duck when you’re supposed to and you know when you have to catch the guy. There’s a lot of memory in pro wrestling. That’s why I think almost any pro wrestler can be a good actor if they can relax enough to enjoy the role and just play it. I think acting and memorising lines aren’t a whole lot different to what we do in the ring wrestling, in memorising high spots and choreographed moves.

Bret Hart vs “Rowdy” Roddy Piper, WrestleMania VIII

 

A great wrestling match is so often about the chemistry between yourself and the person standing opposite you in the ring. With that in mind, which wrestler do you think would make a great partner for you to work opposite in a movie?

I would work with so many guys. I would be happy to work with any of the wrestlers. For some reason I’m thinking of some of the guys that are big and scary, like Undertaker or Yokozuna. It would be fun to play a role with them in a movie. Rock, of course, all of his movies are so well done and have the best of everything in them; the best camera work, the best stunt work. That would be a real thrill to work with someone of that professional, that high of a level. Again, I’m really very impressed with John Cena’s acting roles. I think he’s done an awesome job, and I’ve been quite proud of him for a long time. Bautista, I thought he was so good in Blade Runner 2049. I thought his acting was fantastic. I’ve enjoyed him as a wrestler and I especially enjoy how he seems to pick certain roles, and I really like the job he’s done. If someone said I could work with John Cena or Buatista or Rock, I would be thrilled. At the same time, if Roddy Piper was still alive and he called me to say, “Hey, I’m in a really limited B-movie that’s actually pretty good,” I would do it, just because working with Roddy would’ve been so much fun. I don’t always look at it in terms of the budget or whether this movie could launch my career, I look at it as how much fun it would be to do it.

Considering the size of the guy, if anyone was going to be typecast as the larger-than-life wrestler then it’s Dwayne Johnson. To his credit, he’s gone on to become the biggest box office draw in the movie industry.

The highest paid actor in the world. I would like to see some wrestlers take on some more dramatic roles; something with more emotion and something that could bring out their more emotional side. The more physical, Rock-sort of roles are fun, but it’s not really that much of a stretch from his ring character. And I’m sure Rock could do dramatic television or movies any time he wants to, and I’m sure that will come, but I think the world’s my oyster in that sense. I could find myself doing just about anything if I thought it was the right timing and a fun role to do.

Bret Hart vs The Rock, WWF Raw, 1997

 

So, are you now now actively looking for roles and pursuing acting on a regular basis, or are you more just waiting to see what comes your way?

I’m not looking to make a career as an actor, mostly because acting’s a hard life. Anyone who thinks, “I’m gonna be an actor, it’s easy!”… it’s hard work, it’s long hours, a lot of time you’re away from home while you’re filming. That’s a lot of things that I’ve already done enough of and I don’t need to spend my life away from home anymore. But if the right thing came along, I’d be happy to do it. I’m not really looking, this could be the last movie I ever do, but at the same time it might be the door that opens up for something. Maybe I’ll just be in lots of horror movies because they’re fun to participate in. I would do a war movie in a second. It would be fun to play a cowboy or play a soldier. I often think about roles that would be fun for me to play. If one of them came along, I’d be happy to take a shot at it – succeed or fail!

What would be the dream role for you then?

It’s such a wide-open field. It could be anything. I could play an old boxer, I could play an old boxing promoter, I could play an old gangster. You just never know. If it comes along and I fit the part and I’ve got the time and it’s in a place where I could do it, I wouldn’t rule anything out. At the same time, I don’t know if I’ll be doing many more acting things.

You yourself have had an absolutely fascinating life, full of the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. If there was somebody to play Bret Hart in the story of your life, who would it be?

You know, I don’t know anybody that could play Bret Hart. Only because I don’t know anybody that really looks like me physically or even just above the shoulders. I can’t think of any actor that strikes me as, “Oh yeah, he could play me.” He’s out there somewhere, but I don’t know who could do it. If you’re going to do my book as a movie, who would play Vince McMahon, who would play Andre the Giant?

Bret as WWF Champion

Your book – Bret Hart: My Real Life in the Cartoon World of Wrestling – is an absolutely brilliant read. Is the ultimate plan to bring that to big-screen life?

Only that I hope someday that it’ll happen; that my book goes into film. There’s people out there that can figure that out. When you watch movies – you have someone playing Elton John or someone playing Freddie Mercury from Queen – it’s a challenge and it’s not easy to come off as real. I always thought Will Smith, as much as I love him, I never thought for one second that he was Muhammad Ali. I never thought he was Muhammad Ali even though he had the size and the personality. It was a really lousy attempt capturing Muhammad Ali. As hard as Will Smith tried – he tried his heart out – it was poorly cast. He was not the right guy to play Ali. I remember taking my dad to the movie and we watched the whole movie and he said to me at the end, “When does Ali come on?” He really said it in a serious way. He’d watched the whole movie and he just didn’t get it. And I always thought that whoever plays Bret Hart in a TV or movie project based on my book would have to, I hope, look like me or act like me enough that people go, “Yeah, he reminds me of Bret Hart. He captures Bret Hart.” I hope somebody can answer that question.

Is there the worry, as with so many projects based on real-life people, that liberties may be taken with the truth?

Well I’ve worked now for several years on scripts based on my book. And I’m still in the middle of it. It’s like writing my book in long form; it’s a lot more complicated than doing a book. I’d say I’ve got the equivalent of what would be one season of maybe 18 or 20 episodes. It’s written right now and I’ll keep working on it, and I’ll wait for the right people to come along and see if they want to use my script. When I wrote it, I had to get it right the first time. I’m not going to have chance to write it again. The same thing with film, if someone was going to adjust my book for a film or television series. It would be important to me that it was accurate and that it captures the truth of what I was writing about my career and my life. I’m not for fictionalising my truth with a bunch of things that never happened.

Tales from the Dead Zone will be released at a to-be-confirmed date next year. In the meantime, be sure to follow Bret on Twitter and head on over to talesfromthedeadzone.com.

Derek Landy is an Irish author and screenwriter whose credits include the horror comedy movie Boy Eats Girl and the award-winning Dead Bodies. Derek is best known for his Skulduggery Pleasant series of books, and the latest book in the series, Bedlam, is out now. We caught up with him to find out more.

 

STARBURST: What’s the elevator pitch for Bedlam?

Derek Landy: Valkyrie Cain goes up against the High Sanctuary itself in a desperate effort to save her sister, and there’s nothing Skulduggery can do to stop her.

How would you describe the Skulduggery Pleasant series to an elderly relative?

I would sit them down in a comfy chair and tell them, very gently, that this is a series about a skeleton detective and a girl with an awesome power. I’d tell them about the bickering, the sarcasm, and the intricate plot-weaving. Then I’d take them through each of the decapitations that occur in the books and assure them that’s it’s all been done in the best possible taste.

Where do you even begin with a book like this? It’s quite a long-running series…

I get asked this all the time, so I’ve learned to smile beatifically and say “It’s all part of the plan…”

And that is mostly true. There are plot strands that go all the way back to 2005, when I wrote the first book, that are only now becoming apparent. These are secrets that I’ve been keeping from the readers, secrets that I’ve been praying wouldn’t be guessed before I got to write them.

To get to Book 12 and still be able to surprise the readership is a wonderful thing, but I’m only able to do that by sticking to the basic outline that I’ve had in my head for the last 14 years. This is all one big story, so thankfully the only time I’ve ever really faced that dreaded first blank page was way back at the beginning.

How different is writing a book from script writing?

In a lot of ways, I prefer writing books. Writing screenplays is a lot of fun, and making movies is a dream come true — but as a writer, if you want total control over your story, you need to write a book. You can’t write a film and then complain that it didn’t stay true to your vision.

I wrote two films before the first Skulduggery Pleasant book, and graduating to that level of control and responsibility was just this wonderfully addictive thing that I couldn’t get enough of.

That said, I do miss movies terribly. Being on set, watching the crew bring the script to life, watching the actors live and breathe as your characters… It’s a level of excitement you just don’t get sitting at your desk in a quiet house in your slippers.

What character is the most fun to write?

Valkyrie Cain would be my favourite character, because she’s the one the series revolves around, but Skulduggery is a blast. His origins are all those Bogart and Bacall movies I used to watch as a kid, all those Cary Grant movies, where everyone talks really fast and they’re all so impossibly witty. I grew up with a stammer, so I was never able to talk fast when I was younger, and I think my love of that rapid-fire dialogue is a direct result of that.

And if any character from your books could have their own action figure, which one would it be and how would they react?

Oh, Skulduggery. Definitely. Now that I think of it, he’s probably appalled at the fact that he doesn’t have one yet. He’d be of the opinion that if anyone deserves an action figure, it’d be the sharply-dressed skeleton with the impressive cheekbones.

Which character seriously needs to have a word with themselves?

Most of them…? But especially Valkyrie. She’s been through an awful lot, the poor girl. She was introduced to this crazy world of magic and monsters at the age of 12 and now she’s 25 and she has some serious, serious issues.

Of course, it could be argued that Valkyrie has already had a serious word with herself — and that didn’t go too well.

How long did it take to write Bedlam?

It usually takes me six months to write a book, and Bedlam was no different. That usually works out as three months of writing a few hours a day, taking time off to play video games, read, watch movies… and then another three months of frantic, obsessive work where nothing else gets done. I’ve missed plenty of deadlines over the years, but never the important ones…

What makes this book different from the others you’ve written?

We’re in what is, basically, Phase Two of the Skulduggery Pleasant series. Phase One was books 1 to 9, after which Valkyrie took a few years off before another crisis kicked into gear and she was dragged out of her self-imposed exile. In Bedlam, I’m continuing an exploration of her as an adult, coping with everything she’s been through and coming to terms with everything she’s had to do in order to beat the bad guys and win. In this book, all that trauma really takes its toll, so it’s been fascinating examining that side of her. After 14 years, she’s still surprising me.

What has been the most interesting shift in genre writing in recent years?

I’m going to take “recent” to mean the last 20-odd years, okay? Because then I can say Harry Potter. What Rowling did changed everything. By proving that adults would read books for younger readers, I reckon she’s responsible for the fact that your local bookshop now has a massive YA section filled with all manners of goodies.

What’s next?

Next is more Skulduggery. I’ve got to finish this story before I can focus on anything else. But once that’s done? Oh, I have dreams. I have dreams about books that need no sequels. Single, one-off books that are not part of a series, that tell a story and then… stop. But maybe I dream too big.

What tropes do you personally avoid the most?

I try to avoid the dumb tropes — like where a character has to die in order to spur another one on. (When my characters die, it’s either for a Very Good Reason or just because I’m in a mood.) I love the Chosen One trope just as much as I hate it. When it’s done well, it’s amazing. When it’s done badly, the plot only moves because of a prophecy, and once you notice it, it will drive you insane whenever it crops up. I’m doing my very best to subvert the Chosen One idea in the Skulduggery books with the introduction of Omen Darkly — the useless twin brother of a heroic, strong, capable Chosen One. I get to work out all my vexation there.

Describe your dream project?

I’ve had an idea for a horror novel in my head for ten years and I haven’t been able to knock it into shape yet. But I will.

If you could take one piece of art, music, movie, book, etc and ensure it would last until the sun dies out, what would it be?

This is one of those questions that threatens to overwhelm me, so I’m going to take the easy way out and point to my bookshelf and say Red Dragon, by Thomas Harris. A perfect thriller.

If you could give the 16-year-old version of yourself any advice, what would it be? Would you listen?

And risk corrupting the timeline, are you nuts?

But okay, if it was guaranteed not to impact the future in any negative way, I’d tell him that what he’s doing is right. The way he daydreams all day in class? The way he draws comics instead of doing homework? The way he’s writing stories instead of studying for exams? Keep doing that. Don’t let anyone dampen that imagination. There is no one way to success, or one route to happiness. Be prepared to work hard, but work hard on your own terms.

Also, maybe eat less.

Bedlam is out now and can be found in all good bookshops.

Having won a whole host of plaudits and praise from North American audiences, Dark Side of the Ring has now launched in the UK on VICE. Taking a look at some of professional wrestling’s darkest moments and tragedies, the six-part documentary series is an absolutely fascinating watch for both wrestling fans and non-wrestling fans alike. We were lucky enough to grab some time with director Jason Eisener and producer Evan Husney to discuss being wrestling fans, the real-life shocking incidents behind the curtain of the wrestling industry, how they handled having those involved in those moments revisit such tragedies, potential topics for a second season of the show, and a whole lot more.

STARBURST: Starting with the obvious question then, were you both wrestling fans growing up? And if so, when did you become a fan and who were your favourites back then?

Jason: Both Evan and I, we grew up as major wrestling fans. My very first wrestling show was really impactful for me. I went to a WWF Superstars show and I was probably 10 or 12 years old. I had a spot right next to the guardrail, where the wrestlers come out for their entrance. While I was sitting there, there was this wrestler named Skinner who was like a Southern outback sort of wrestler. I leaned over the rail and me and my cousin were screaming at him, “You suck! You suck!” He came over and locked eyes on us, then grabbed me by the collar of my shirt and pulled me up over the guardrail. Me and my cousin. He pulled us in to his face and I could smell his breath – he had this chewing tobacco – and he was all, “I’m gonna skin you!” I was so terrified. It left such a huge mark on me. I was, at that time, already a full-blown believer in the wrestling world, but that kept me as a believer all the way up until this day.

Evan: I had an opposite experience. My first wrestling match was a WrestleMania house show in, I think, 1991. It was during the Hulk Hogan/Sgt. Slaughter conflict. I had come in to wrestling as a big G.I. Joe fan and so I was, “Oh, I get to see Sgt. Slaughter live in person!” Much to my horror, I didn’t understand at the time – I didn’t know who Saddam Hussein was – that he [Slaughter] was this Iraqi sympathiser character. My parents were aghast that I’m cheering for Sgt. Slaughter. The only kid in the auditorium who was, “Who’s this bald guy with the blond skullet who’s attacking my American hero?”. I was crying. My parents were so embarrassed that I might not be altogether there. That was where my love for it started, and then it was literally opening up a Big Boss Man action figure and playing with it for a decade. After that, it was getting in to the Attitude Era. It’s always been a part of my life.

When you first decided to do Dark Side of the Ring, what was your initial aim for the series?

Evan: So Jason and I have been best friends for a long time. We both met in our filmmaking circle and we quickly discovered that we had a lot in common. Our childhoods were very similar; the movies, the action figures, wrestling and all that stuff. Jason’s a film director and he had done several different projects, and I’d been a staff employee at VICE for several years making various documentaries for online. We both kind of got in to wrestling again as lapsed fans. We got back in to it in a big way. As our fandom started with Skinner, there’s a lot of blind spots there in terms of the territory era, what happened before, Japan in the ‘80s. Thanks to the internet, a lot of that stuff people have got obsessed with in the last several years.

One of the things that caught our attention immediately was the Bruiser Brody story; Bruiser Brody as this mythological, incredible, unbelievable personality in wrestling, but also us being moved and outraged by his final days. We just were perplexed. If that story happens in today’s wrestling environment, it would be front-page news everywhere. The fact that it’s sort of been forgotten for several decades, it felt like it was right for a re-examination. That was the jumping-off point. Here’s this story, how do we do it? It was really when VICE the TV channel started up, it seemed like a fit for us to do the documentary for the channel. Then that sort of grew and grew – what other stories deserve a similar treatment? That was the genesis. We did the Bruiser Brody episode as sort of the ‘proof of concept’ pilot, and that allowed us to make a full series last year.

Photo credit: Barbara Goodish

 

People like Lanny Poffo and Kevin Von Erich have previously spoken publicly about their own personal losses, but you then have Gino Hernandez and Bruiser Brody’s families who are not used to being in the spotlight. How was it to approach those families and assure them that you were being respectful and not exploitative?

Evan: It’s very tricky. You have to approach it very delicately because you don’t want to appear as being too much of a wrestling fan; someone who may or may not grasp the gravity of the situation that you’re dealing with, dealing with someone’s loss of a loved one. That transcends the importance of wrestling. It’s just a process of getting to really know those people and to give them the proper amount of time and respect, to earn that trust. In several cases, Gino’s family being the prime example, it was literally about going out to meet with them in person without cameras and just trying to get to know one another so they could understand where we’re coming from and how we have their best interests in mind; we really want to tell their story and just hope that they trust us. That was part of the thing. It’s just a process and getting to know somebody on a personal level so that they understand that your intentions are genuine. Where a lot of other programmes did it, it might just be the sensational stories. Here, it couldn’t be further than that. These are powerful stories that might help somebody else in their own situation, or it might help people see wrestling in a different way.

Jason: With the Von Erich story, I think that was a big part of why Kevin wanted to tell his story. They can be something that other people can learn from or find inspiration in. When you hear what he and his family have gone through, if he could make it out the other side, I think that that can be really helpful for other people who may be struggling with life. He’s been getting that a lot – you see on Twitter there’s a lot of people reaching out to him and thanking him for being so open about his story. People have been finding it really helpful.

Photo credit: Buddy Myers

 

For some of the six stories told in the first season, wrestling fans may already be well familiar with them. How did you approach these tales in a way that made them feel fresh or to give people something they haven’t heard before? For instance, Jim Cornette revealed a major new twist to the Montreal Screwjob.

Evan: That’s a good question.

Jason: We do so much research. We’ve seen every wrestling documentary that you could find, pretty much. We really want to tell these stories in a way that they have never been told before. We’ve been watching every shoot interview, every wrestling documentary, to try and navigate our way to tell these stories in a way that people haven’t heard before. But we also wanted to bring a very cinematic quality to it, and we wanted to make the episodes in a way so that non-wrestling fans could get introduced to the world and understand what was going on. Our biggest goal was to make the most hardcore wrestling fans respect what we’d done, but to also make somebody who doesn’t know anything about the wrestling world be able to see the episodes and see why it is that we love and respect this business so much. Our favourite comments about the show have been from other wrestling fans who said they’ve shown it to a loved one or friend who isn’t a wrestling fan, then it’s got them interested in the wrestling business. That’s probably the coolest thing.

Evan: I think of Montreal specifically. I think the purpose that the episode served it was, like Jason was saying, we wanted to make the show for a non-wrestling audience. Talking about the one big 30 for 30 moment in wrestling where everything changed – where people started to get more interested in the behind the scenes rather than what was happening in the ring – you can’t look any further than the Montreal Screwjob. I think the episode for people who aren’t as familiar as wrestling as the three of us, that episode really is the perfect primer in terms of understanding how the behind the scenes works and how it functions and what it means to be a champion. It really establishes those things for an audience going forward to see the other stories that are going to unfold as the season goes on. I think that was the main reason for doing this in the beginning. But we had no idea that Cornette was going to give us that piece of information, and how awesome was that?

You talked about wanting to make these stories cinematic, and the interviews featured in Dark Side of the Ring are interspersed with well-produced re-enactments featuring lookalikes. How tricky was it to find so many lookalikes for the fill-in scenes?

Jason: We ran the production out of Toronto, out of the VICE Toronto office. Just down the street from the VICE Toronto office was a wrestling school and a local wrestling promotion called Superkick’d. They had a lot of performers that we were able to use. We teamed up with them, they let us use their ring and use a lot of their talent, but then we also went to bodybuilder groups, we scoured Instagram for different gyms in Toronto looking for big guys, and then just local casting agencies too. We were lucky enough to find some wrestlers who had gimmicks that were very similar to our performers. So we had a fella from Montreal whose gimmick was very close to Abdullah the Butcher, and we had another wrestler whose gimmick was really close to Bruiser Brody. They already had the research done for the characters, they had been studying these wrestlers for their entire lives, so it was easy for them to step in and assume those roles.

In additions to interviews and recreations, you also have a lot of footage of these real-life wrestlers in action. Given how a lot of what you’re discussing in each episode is potentially detrimental to some of the companies involved, how did you manage to get the rights to that footage?

Evan: There are a lot of limitations in terms of the archival that’s going to be available to you to tell the story. You have to lean on the people who were there to tell these stories. That’s the way we’ve always approached these stories from the beginning. That being said, that was really the emphasis that inspired the idea of doing the re-enactments in the first place – to help bolster the story, visually. We had to come up with an interesting way to transport viewers in to the minds of the interview subjects and the memories they have, but also to be able to bring a visualisation to the moments that weren’t in the archives; the stuff that happened in the locker rooms, the stuff happening on the road, the stuff happening in hotels. That was really the reason why we wanted to do dramatic re-enactments., and because Jason and I are huge fans of Errol Morris and his film The Thin Blue Line. We really just wanted to make the Thin Blue Line version of wrestling.

Jason: Very true.

Off the people who are still alive, you managed to get input from the majority of the key players in each of these stories. Was there anybody you reached out to who either you couldn’t get hold of or they just flat-out refused?

Evan: I wouldn’t say every episode, but the majority of them maybe had one or two people that we tried to get but we were unsuccessful. One that comes to mind is Shawn Michaels for the Screwjob. We were kind of surprised, but he felt he’d said his piece on it already, and that’s fair. As you know in the Bruiser Brody episode, we mention the people that didn’t want to participate. And I think Lex Luger was one who turned us down for the Macho Man episode, which was surprising to us only in that one of the major reasons that we wanted to include his side of the story is because we were so moved by a lot of his interviews about that. He’s been able to take what’s happened to him and turn it into an experience to help others. We thought it was very inspiring and thought that was such a no-brainer for our episode in the way that we would treat it. Unfortunately, he didn’t want to be a part of it. So we had to build by the fact that we did have that story on Eric Bischoff’s podcast, and we wanted to include that because it’s very important to hear his [Luger’s] perspective.

As wrestling fans, do you remember what the first real-life shocking incident you heard about was?

Jason: I didn’t hear about the Bruiser Brody murder when I was a kid, but I definitely remember people on the schoolyard talking about the Montreal Screwjob. Being from Canada myself, and Bret Hart being just as big or bigger than Wayne Gretsky, that was a really big deal for all the Canadian kids. So that was the first time I remember. When Bret started going to the press after the Montreal Screwjob had taken place, even as a kid we thought that that was crazy. To hear that Vince McMahon, that they were admitting that they were openly talking about scripting finishes for matches, I remember that being a real shocker as a kid.

Evan: For me, it’s more recent, but I definitely remember where I was standing when I heard that Randy Savage had passed away. That was a huge one for me, because he’s always to this day been my number one in terms of who I believe is the quintessential wrestler. I remember exactly when that happened, and that one probably more-so than several others was a huge emotional loss for me. I was distraught for days after that.

Photo credit: George Napolitano

 

Sadly, the wrestling business is one filled with more than its fair share of tragedies, particularly with names such as Chris Benoit, Jimmy Snuka and Nancy Argentino, Dino Bravo, Adrian Adonis, Joanie Laurer and countless others. If a second season of Dark Side of the Ring is ordered, are there any particular stories that stand out to you as needing to be told?

Evan: There’s several stories. We’re still waiting to hear if we’re officially going to be renewed for another season, but if we are then unfortunately there are several, several stories that you could cover going forward. Several of them, it’s just about finding the right access, making sure you can get the right people who were there with first-hand information for these stories so that it’s not exploitive and it’s not so much of an exposé. We want it to be authentic, truthful and genuine with the stories that we tell. We were supposed to have a larger Season 1 than originally planned – it was supposed to be eight episodes, so we had to stop working and pause on two different ones – and one of them was the Dino Bravo story. That one we did a considerable amount of work on already; we’ve done several interviews and had several edits of it. We didn’t do the re-enactments yet, but we got pretty far in that story. For that one, for us, as far as looking forward, it’s really wanting to finish that. That’s always been the goal, because we did so much work on it. That one definitely is pretty eye-opening.

Photo credit: Chris Swisher

 

It’s to your credit that you don’t particularly drive the narrative of these stories in any specific direction. Instead, you allow input from all sides and let the audience make up their own mind. As filmmakers, how hard is it to not skew in a certain direction, such as in the case of the Fabulous Moolah episode?

Jason: In terms of the Moolah story, it is difficult to navigate what really happened. Moolah’s no longer around to speak for herself, but there are women who were really close to her who worked with her and trained with her, and so we thought it was important to hear all sides of the story and give an opportunity to the people who are down to talk to us to tell us their truth. In a lot of ways, we wanted to present both sides of the story but allow for the audience to form their own opinion on how they feel about the subject.

Evan: Since this show was literally inspired by a lot of the wrestling shoot interviews that are on YouTube, you always get such partially contrasting viewpoints from a lot of wrestlers – whether they were part of the story or not! Conspiracy and rumour are always something that’s so common in interviews with wrestlers, and so we really wanted to always show that because that in and of itself is something pretty singular to people in wrestling. A lot of these stories that we’re talking about, especially Moolah, a story that goes back 50+ years, it just shows the grey area that wrestling history really is. I think with the Moolah story specifically, what we wanted to do was show that there are two sides to the story and leave it for viewers to come up with their own thoughts, but also to show that it’s very complicated. It’s not as binary as black and white in terms of someone’s history and legacy.

Jason: Especially in the wrestling world. Someone like Moolah, you look at any of her interviews and she protected the business. She’s in character in a lot of her interviews. For someone today, if they heard the allegations about Moolah and wanted to see what this person’s like, you look at her interviews and she comes across as a heel-ish person because she’s playing the character in all of her interviews. In a lot of ways that is the thesis of the whole series. Trying to find the truth in the world of wrestling is really difficult because, unlike any other sport or any other artform, it calls for its performers to protect the mystique of wrestling. Even someone like Bruiser Brody, you can’t really find any interviews with him out of character. He did such an incredible job of protecting his character and living his character in all of his public life. But that’s what we find so fascinating and that’s what we love so much. We really love that time period in which wrestlers had to go to great lengths to protect the business and protect their characters. You can’t find that in any other sport, you can’t find that in any other artform, and that’s really what makes wrestling really special.

Photo credit: Linda Bollea

 

One major name who wasn’t involved in the series was Hulk Hogan, who has since taken to social media claiming that he wasn’t asked to partake in Dark Side of the Ring. Personally speaking, from seeing so many Hogan interviews over the years, you always have to take what he says with a large pinch of salt, and him being involved may have actually taken away some of the credibility of the show…

Jason: We did reach out to Hulk Hogan. Partially I would agree with you, but I would love to have gotten him in our seat and I would’ve loved for us to have been able to talk to him. I think we could get a side of Hogan that people haven’t seen before. If that opportunity ever came up, I think we could get something special out of Hogan.

Moving forward, are there are wrestling stories that would be deemed off-limits for you or is everything fair game to be put in a public forum?

Evan: I think anything’s fair game, but I do think that it largely depends on getting the right people to talk about it. There are some stories where I think we definitely wouldn’t do them just to do them. I think it largely comes down to getting the right family members, the right people who were there, and that the story is there. It really comes down to that. For any story, we would have to treat it with the most respect and it’s also not about necessarily us pointing fingers. We really want to be telling our story in the most human way possible. This is all about humanity, it’s about the lives that these people led, and I think the more that people are open about certain things, no matter how dark they are, I think it’s good to talk about them. I think that’s the way that we would try to handle stories that are of a more difficult nature.

Dark Side of the Ring airs every Wednesday at 10pm on VICE UK.

We talk with STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION legend MARINA SIRTIS as she prepares for her role in the upcoming West End production, DARK SUBLIME…

STARBURST: What made you decide that this would be the role that would finally take you on to the West End?

Marina Sirtis: Well, it started a couple of years ago. I was at Destination: Star Trek in Birmingham and Dominic Keating was one of the other guests. Our director Andrew Keates is a really good friend of his, so he came with Dominic to the convention and we hit it off immediately. Then we started thinking maybe we’d like to do a play together, so we started looking for some projects and he sent me some stuff. Some of the stuff that he sent me is actually happening in other places, but then he sent me Dark Sublime, and I read it and I immediately called him back and I said, ‘This is my life’, and he said ‘what’? I said, ‘Did he know me when he wrote this?’ meaning Michael Dennis the author, and he said no. It’s as if he has been spying on me and wrote this play because not only is it kind of eerie that the character’s called Marianne, which is so close to Marina, but there are lines in the play that I have actually spoken in life.

What makes you different from Marianne?

To be honest there are only two things that are really different. One is that the character is gay, and I’m not, and two is that Dark Sublime was not a huge worldwide hit like Star Trek. I was in a huge hit and she wasn’t, but as far as personality and character and opening your mouth and putting your size tens in, it really is so much like me.  When I read it, I said I know it wasn’t really written for me, but I have to play this part because I don’t know who else could play it.

Given that you were in a massive hit that’s endured for all these years, and Marianne wasn’t, is that the attraction, to see the mirror side of it? What if you’d been in a show that hadn’t been a monster hit? Are you looking forward to exploring that?

No, because although Dark Sublime is the name of the sci-fi show she was on, the play is actually about relationships. To be honest, I wouldn’t have been interested in doing a sci-fi play, because I’ve done sci-fi now. When you’ve done the best sci-fi ever – and I know I’m biased – that wouldn’t appeal to me so much, but what I love to watch are projects about how people relate to each other and the dynamics of relationships, so to me, that’s what the play’s about. She has these very complicated relationships with people and that’s what I found interesting.

The other thing was I regard myself as a character actress. I like to disappear into a role like Green Street Hooligans 2 or Crash where I’m unrecognisable, that’s what I really like to do. This is going to be the first time that I’ve ever played a character that’s so close to me, and it’s a bit of a test for me because I’m a bit frightened of that.

Because she’s so similar to you?

Yeah, basically I have to be me. I have to be very close to who I am as a person. American actors do it all the time, they play versions of themselves, but I like to disappear into a character. When people meet me, and they’re big TNG fans, they’re like ‘Oh my god, you’re nothing like her.’ The biggest challenge to playing Deanna Troi was keeping Marina out of her because we’re very dissimilar. I’m not as sweet or as nice as her by any stretch of the imagination, and I’m far more judgemental. When people say ‘what do you have in common’, I’m like, well, we’re the same height [laughs]. That’s about it really. Even our eye colour was different because I was wearing black contact lenses.

The attraction to Dark Sublime for me was my West End debut. I’ve only ever been an understudy in the West End before and I never went on, so it’s been my dream since I was a toddler to be in the West End and it’s finally happened at the age of 64, so I’m thrilled.

Was it the case that the opportunity had never arisen, or you’d been offered stuff and you thought ‘Nah, I don’t fancy that’, or life was too busy?

I went to America, and to be honest I won’t do theatre in Los Angeles because it’s not a theatre city. They think generally that you’re doing a play because you can’t get a movie or a TV show, and I love the theatre too much to have it disrespected like that. Also, I’ve been in the business 42 years and I don’t work for free anymore. I’m not saying I want a lot of money, but I’m not going to work for $9.00 a night, which is basically your petrol money. I’ve done plays on the East Coast in places like Philadelphia and Connecticut where they do respect the theatre, they’re theatre towns, but I won’t do theatre in Los Angeles.

How are rehearsals going?

We start rehearsals on the day of the Champions League Final – Saturday, June 1st – so I can’t go to Madrid to support Spurs, which I would have done.

Has this experience so far whet your appetite for more theatre work, opening up another chapter of your career?

Well, I have to be honest, I have been thinking about moving back home for a few years now, and then I definitely made up my mind up to come home when Donald Trump was elected. That did my head in and I don’t think I can live in Trump’s America.  I don’t think that the evil and the vitriol and the vileness that he has brought out in some of the American people… I don’t think the genie’s going back in the bottle. All the evils have come out. My metaphor is a little bit more gruesome; I say pick the scab off and the pus is pouring out.

You’ve had your fill of that, and you want a fresh start?

Yeah, and also as an actress I did a panto in Bridlington at Christmas and I realised that I like to be around English people. Americans are lovely, but they’re not like us, they’re very different people, and I’ve done it for thirty years and I want to be surrounded by people who I don’t have to explain when I’m joking. The other thing is, they don’t write parts for older women in America. They just don’t.

And there’s more work in that vein here in the UK.

There is. I read an interview that Michael Dennis, who wrote Dark Sublime, and he said he had always found older actresses more interesting, so when he wrote the play he wanted to write it for older actresses. There’s only one young part in it and that’s Ollie, the young fan. If he had submitted this play in America they’d say ‘change all the ages and make them younger’. So just as an actor who has to work to keep the lights on, I need to be where the work is, and the work is not in Los Angeles.

Does it excite you to be talking about something other than Star Trek with such passion?

Yes. I will never, ever, ever say anything bad about Star Trek, because every good thing I have in my life, Star Trek gave me. I’m not going to be Leonard Nimoy and write a book saying, ‘I Am Not Deanna’. I loved my time on the show, I loved the people that I worked with, in fact, we’re all still best friends thirty years later, which is an anomaly in Hollywood, let me tell you. I wouldn’t change a minute of it, but it is nice to have something else to talk about.

Right now, Star Trek is having a huge resurgence in terms of profile, with the new shows and everything else that’s coming along. How do you feel about that? Are you enjoying it as a fan, watching this explosion of Star Trek all over again?

I’m loving it, because we all reap the benefits. When there’s new Star Trek, it ignites the franchise and gets people interested again, so it actually behoves all of us at conventions that there’s this resurgence of interest. I love Star Trek: Discovery because it’s very female-driven, which is fantastic, and of course, I can’t wait to see Patricks new show. That’s what I’m really excited about, to be honest. Sir Old Baldy is back on the scene!

Did you ever expect Trek to bounce back again like it has, or did it feel to you like it was lying in wait?

I actually thought it was done and dusted after Enterprise, I really did. The show wasn’t as big the three shows from TNG onwards and I thought ‘they’ve killed off the franchise now’, but obviously they haven’t. I think they realise now, the powers that be, that you can’t have too much Star Trek. People want it, and especially Patrick as Picard. He’s an icon isn’t he. I think it’s brilliant.

Can you believe you’re still talking about TNG after 32 years, and people are still interested and joining the fandom, and you still have stories to tell?

The thing is, I kind of took the original show as a template. They’re still out and about doing conventions. I could see from the original cast that the interest never died, and they were still in demand as far as the fans were concerned. Maybe not as far as Hollywood was concerned, but the fans still want to meet their heroes, so I’m not really surprised. I am kind of intellectually thinking ‘why are people still talking to me about Star Trek, it was so long ago’, but that’s another thing that’s similar about the play. There are scenes in the play where we talk about this – why are people interested in a show that happened 35 years ago; what’s that about? So we delve into that as well.

So when you started with Star Trek I’m assuming that even though there was that legend of the original cast going out and doing conventions, you couldn’t have expected to still be doing it to the level that you are all these years later…

No, I have to be honest, when we got cast, all of us pretty much thought we’ll do a year and then we’ll get cancelled. You tend to forget – and I’m going to blow my own trumpet now – TNG was the most successful Star Trek show ever, and that was the surprise, especially as the fans were not all that welcoming when we started. They were a bit pissed off. They were like ‘How dare you try to take the place of our heroes! We don’t want another Star Trek!’ Before we aired the first episode, I’ve never done so much press in my life, and the first questions out of every reporter’s mouth was ‘who’s the new Spock?’ and we were like’ We haven’t got a Spock.’ The fans were not happy. I remember going to conventions and there’d be thirty people there with their arms crossed scowling at me, like ‘How dare you,’ but Paramount stuck with us, even though I don’t think our numbers were great in the first season, and as people who stuck with us in the first season realised it got better and better. Once the writers had figured out who we were and what the characters were up to, and then of course when Michael Piller came on the show, God rest him, in the third season and then it really took off because the writing was so brilliant. It really kicked it up a notch.

DARK SUBLIME will be playing at London’s Trafalgar Studio from June 25th to August 3rd. For tickets and further information, visit www.trafalgarentertainment.com